The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kramer

Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby David Smith on Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:25 am

Hi Debrina,

I would have posted the Globe and Mail article but couldn’t figure out how to do it. :-)

I’ve found these other links. You might have seen them already. This one appears to be someone willing to help on the Graham side of the family.

http://www.old-time.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=841

I am very good friends with members of the Allison family (Hudson's great niece and great great niece) and would like to facilitate contact-there is interest.

This one is another relative of yours, Stephanie Allison Carpenter with a possible DNA link from the McCully’s side (Bess’s maiden name, I think)

http://news-events.indie.my/2010/12/09/has-anyone-heard-the-real-story-of-this-titanic-survivor/

Stephanie Carpenter said:
December 19th, 2010 on 12:58 am
This is the most recent discussion I have found about the Allisons. I am completely fascinated with this story because my Great grandmother is/was Loraine Allison. The woman that claimed to be Loraine Allison. I don’t know if I believe the story or not. I’m just now interested in doing my own research to see what I can find out about it all. I do tend to think my Great Grandmother, Loraine Kramer, was not the Loraine Allison she claimed to be but when comparing her pictures with those of Hudson Allison they do look A LOT alike. I was even given Allison as my middle name because my Great grandmother was Loraine Allison that she claimed to be. It’s a crazy story and one I hope to get to the bottom of one day. But yeah that was my Great Grandmother Loraine Kramer.
Stephanie Carpenter.

Lucy McCully said:
February 21st, 2011 on 11:58 pm Stephanie CarpentIn my humble opinion and without prejudice I would like to comment on this. I’m not sure why you didn’t wait the few weeks for the DNA results, before starting this thread. That could be the reason for opposition. You must feeer. I am a relative of Loraine Allison through her mother, Bessie Allison nee Daniels. (I am related through Bessie’s mother’s family, the McCully’s.) Please contact me if you see this message as I would love to talk about this more with you and if possible see pictures of your great grandmother. You can contact me at
@ lucylastic95@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk (remove the NOSPAM before sending)

Debrina Woods wrote:I wish I could say that I have not encountered any hostility and animosity these past few weeks but it has been a sad revelation to me to have encountered such strong opposition and others willingness to NOT cooperate.

Be that as it may, I TOTALLY understand WHY my grandmother choose to just walk away ...
WHO NEEDS IT!


Debrina, In my humble opinion and without prejudice, I’m not sure why you started this thread without first obtaining DNA results. You are putting the cart before the horse. It’s been 70 years since your grandmother’s announcement, so what’s another month or two? Some of the things you have implied could be viewed as inflammatory, particularly if you are an Allison descendant. Perhaps that is the reason for some of the opposition. On this thread I see nothing but co operation to help you so I am perplexed why you would bother making this comment. This has been the most active thread on the topic, so where is the opposition coming from? Also it has crossed my mind, what happens if the DNA results show no relation to the Allisons? What will you do? Will you post it here? Once you have all your DNA ducks in a row, I’d come out of the barn with guns blazing.

Just food for thought.



Dave
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby David Smith on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:04 pm

Debrina,

Sorry I got mixed up on my copying and pasting on the previous post. From the previous link, this is what Lucy McCully said:

Lucy McCully said:
February 21st, 2011 on 11:58 pm I am a relative of Loraine Allison through her mother, Bessie Allison nee Daniels. (I am related through Bessie’s mother’s family, the McCully’s.) Please contact me if you see this message as I would love to talk about this more with you and if possible see pictures of your great grandmother. You can contact me at@ lucylastic95@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk (remove the NOSPAM before sending)

Also this comment from hazel mccully at:

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/forums/titanic-news/8524-helen-loraine-allison-kramer-survivor-titanic-mystery.html

I have been researching this claim thoroughly. Bessie Allison is my first cousin 3 times removed. My great great grandmother was her aunt Clara.

This claim caused a lot of distress to my family and I would be interested to see it resolved once and for all. I have many clear photographs of Loraine which have been passed down to me. My great grandmother was very close to Bessie, her cousin and they would write and send pictures to each other several times a month. These are still in my family. I would be especially interested if the OP has any clear close up pictures of her grandmother so that I can compare them with pictures of Loraine.


Dave
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Timothy Trower on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:50 pm

Dave (and all),

Just a note; especially when posting an eddress that is not yours, please take the precaution to add the word NOSPAM in the eddress with a note asking that this word be taken out before sending. This prevents web bots from harvesting eddresses from this site and selling them to spammers. I have edited the two above posts for this reason.
All the best,

Tim

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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Tue May 01, 2012 5:04 am

Hiya Debrina,
sorry to bother you again ;)

"You can contact me directly for my mothers suranme and photos."

I got the photo's, thanks, but I have just realized you must have forgotten to tell me your mother's surname. I would be grateful if you could mail me with it :)

Sorry to be a a pain.

Regards,
John.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby David Smith on Tue May 01, 2012 2:53 pm

Tim, Ok, sorry about that.

Hi Debrina,

I was wondering if you know Stephanie Carpenter? Also I was wondering if you have listened to your Grandmother speak on the radio program she was on? Do you know what date that was?

Dave
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Tue May 01, 2012 6:46 pm

Image

Debrina,

I have been looking through my files and came accross this photograph I found some time ago during my investigations. It is from about 1923 and I believe it could be Evangeline, your grandmother as she had been known. Can you confirm this or not?

I have to say the likeness is truly staggering.

Kind regards,
John.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Debrina Woods on Tue May 01, 2012 10:48 pm

Ok Let me catch up here...

So, Why did I start the post?

Well, Because I was darn excited about the information uncovered when I had discovered the suitcase that my grandmother had stored away these 70 years, with what are now 12 binders full of documentation supporting my her claim and this story on a level that I could have never imagined. The Fact is, it was very compelling evidence and what was especially convincing are the attorneys (detailed) reports to her that put things in a perspective I had thought would be impossible but there it was..and the REAL story just unfolds. NOTE: You can see the binders at the web site: www.titanicslastmystery.com
As well as all the letters from the Daniel's and Allison family and from friends and business associates of Hudson's, from back in the day, who after interfacing with her DID ACCEPT her. I have hundreds of letters organized now into the binders by correspondent.

WHY the mention of hostilities encountered:
Please, It was NOT directed at this forum but I was referring to experiences from other stops along the way of this discovery.

RE: WHY I did not get the DNA testing done first???:
I had NO ONE to approach for the testing...in fact the ONLY way I was able to contact the parties involved now, was FROM Someone who contacted me in THIS FORUM...and I BLESS them everyday!

RE: The recording of my grandmothers voice on the WE the PEOPLE Radio Show
I have the original recording metal disc as well as the original transcript provided to her. Only a bamboo needle is required (as I understand it) to be able to listen to it....I am hoping that some technology today will assist in this task.

RE: Stephanie Carpenter: WE are related, but not close at all. I have had no contact or connection to her for many, many years.

I lament ANY discomfort that this claim may have caused or is causing anyone...but can you imagine the pain that my poor grandmother endured...I saw her tears but also her resolve to just get on with living the life she was given a second chance at...and she did LOVE life!

I state again, that I am approaching this all without prejudice and simply ask the same of you all...and now that I am able to go the next step further with DNA analysis (which could very well definitively make this claim) and then once the "WHO" of her Identity has been finaly established, proceed on with sharing the incredible "HOW" of the events as documented.

NOTE: What ever controversial statements are made or alluded to, are only after dozens of letters from the family members themselves stating these same facts and from the private detectives reports hired by the Attorney. Again when you actually sit down and READ this saga from letters and documents from the actual time......that you begin to see the tale unfold and YES the TRUTH can be (MUCH) Stranger than fiction or preconceived notions. Which is WHY I would like to share this incredible Cache of historical information in a book that everyone can shake their heads and say "Who whould have thought..."

I assure ALL here that the few family and friends and my Attorneys who have actually sat down and plowed through (it took me four days before it was organized) agreed, THIS is a compelling story and MANY heretofore unanswered questions are answered within those pages. It is heartbreaking really.

I hope this helps, DAVE thank for your links I will folow up on contacting them this week, NOTE: Dave & John, pls. contact me via the website for the information you seek and that I would be happy to provide in a less public forum.

FYI John: She was also known as Irene but then (HYDE) told her she had to change her name to Evangeline while she was still young. (????)
My BEST regards to all here.
dw
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Debrina Woods on Wed May 02, 2012 12:56 am

PS The WE the PEOPLE radio show was aired in Early September 1940 and before she even left the studio...she had responses to her plea...and John the photo is odd for me to comment on as I only knew my grandmother as a much older woman... and it is very grainy at the Blog site...
Will you please attach in an email to me that mom and I can study? THX dw
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby David Smith on Wed May 02, 2012 1:28 am

Hi Debrina,

There is a very good web site, which I’m sure you know at http://www.titanic-passengers.com/allison.htm which has the Johnston and Allison family tree. (a large number of relatives of both sides) It gives a good summary of the family, as well there is text showing “Loraine Allison Vs. Loraine Kramer”, but no write up. Also the web master says she will email the “Bessie Waldo Allison (Daniels)” family tree to anyone interested. I assume you have all that information.

Will you be posting the DNA conclusion either way and do you know when they will arrive?

Thank you,
Dave
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby David Smith on Thu May 03, 2012 1:15 am

John,

That's an interesting photo. Do you think that was taken while she was attending private school in England? It almost looks like a school uniform. I'm sure there would be class pictures at a much younger age.

Dave
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Debrina Woods on Thu May 03, 2012 10:22 pm

To all who have posted as regards this matter,
I have been advised by my legal consul: David Markman /EMAIL: MarkmanD@GTLAW.com

That there is nothing more that I can contribute in the public domain until our story based upon this newly discovered documentation is published and he is currently fielding all book/film/documentary/museum interest. His firm is holding the originals, in the binders and we are also in the process of copyrighting all the documentation held therein.

Yes, I will certainly agree to post the DNA testing results here in this forum and also at my website: www.titanicslastmystery.com NOTE: A PR firm associated with Mr. Marksman's practice, will handle all other news and media announcement of the findings.

I would like to reiterate that my experience in this forum has been an exceedingly positive one and I WOULD NEVER have been able TO LOCATE the DNA recipients to prove this claim had it not been for these postings and for that I am eternally grateful.

My Mother and I appreciate all your interest and passion as pertains to this unique and sorrow filled tale and will look forward to providing the final determination to you all soon....and then, the REAL story will be (finally) told...and in THIS case I assure you all that the TRUTH, is stranger than (any) fiction.

Thank you all for making this journey with us.
Sincere regards,
dw
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Thu May 03, 2012 11:10 pm

Hello again Debrina,

I e-mailed you the other day but as I have not heard from you I guess it did not arrive. I am trying to help and wished you to let me know if the two photographs I sent you are, as my research suggests, of your grandmother. I attach them both here for you to see. I am certain that your mother will be able to tell you that it is indeed Lorraine a.k.a Evangeline Irene.

Image

Image

Please, I am only trying to help find justice in this matter and hope you will answer me either on here or via my e-mail address.

Regards,
John.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Timothy Trower on Thu May 03, 2012 11:25 pm

Debrina,

I understand (from a legal point of view) exactly why you should no longer comment publicly; like the other visitors to this thread, I'll await with baited breath the final results. Look for an email from me shortly as well.
All the best,

Tim

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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Fri May 04, 2012 11:14 am

I do not understand why I have not recieved any reply. Nothing. This is a serious and genuine attempt to help. The question of the identity of the woman in these photographs is one that can be answered yes or no. It can be done here or via e-mail. It is not some great secret, surely?

John.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Fri May 04, 2012 12:20 pm

A major breakthrough in this story has just occured. It is now proven, yes proven, that the claims being made by Debrina Woods regarding her grandmother being THE Helen Loraine (correct spelling) Allison, are FALSE.

Here is the proof which is all contained within publicly accessed records. Records that are legal documents.
This information is also going to be copied to Ms Woods 'legal consul', who happens to be a media agent and also members of the Allison family.

Helen Loraine Kramer "married" Beecher Ferguson. they had two children in 1929 and 1930 in Michigan
In 1935, she was with Lawrence Kramer and they had two children in 1935 and 1937 in Michigan

In 1922 this same woman was with a Dr. Lester Robert Walsh in Michigan. Also in 1922 she had a son, Lester Leo John Walsh. When Lester Leo John Walsh applied for Social Security he gave his mother's name as Evangline Irene Lee Hyde which shows it IS the same Helen Loraine Kramer who claimed a "Mr. Hyde" rescued her off the Titanic.

Now in 1922 Helen Loraine Allison, had she lived, would have been 13 years old! not old enough to be married and with a child in Michigan when Ms. Woods claims her grandmother was being raised in England by this Mr. Hyde.

Kind regards to all,
John.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Thomas Golembiewski on Sat May 05, 2012 10:40 am

John:

Wonderful research, and thanks for sharing, every bit helps . . . however, famed entertainer Jerry Lee Lewis caused a scandal in the staid 1950s when he ran off and married a cousin who was all of 13, as such, what you post does not in and of itself dispells Mrs. Kramer's claim . . . irregardless, though your research is not definitive, let us all wait for the results of the DNA, and see what that shows . . . if nothing, then what was it all about, how many people on the planet would come forward with a fantastic claim to be a child presumably lost aboard Titanic, and wait decades to make such a farout charge? The who and why of all that would make for a most intriguing article . . . the whole thing is fabulous . . .

Debrina though is not to blame, an innocent in all this . . .

John, do you know what forces were behind all this in 1940?

I say, let's all wait and see what develops . . .
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Debrina Woods on Sat May 05, 2012 11:04 am

Thank you John for your posting. Yes, this is all information known to us of course but there is much more than what this (public) information you provided discloses and which the DNA testing will ultimately substantiate. NOTE: the Only reason I was unable to respond to your email was that I have had a very busy week at work (I do have another life and successful career) working 18 hours per...

Sir, do you not think that the Allison family back in the day could do math... ????? and yet I have years of correspondence from them having accepted her claim. Would Mr. Flynn have accepted a case of this nature without doing the Math? Would a national Radio Show have invited her as a guest without doing the math? Would ANY of the newspaper arctiles of the day NOT have done the math? I am trying to be patient with you.

We have the answer to your BREAKING News which will all be forth coming as promised when we publish.

To also answer, neither my mother nor I could definitively look at the photos you sent and state it was grandmother as we both had only known her as a grown woman. But we were remaining open, and I had intended to email you this morning. While your diligence in researching I am certain is well meant, it comes from the public domain and does not compare with the shear volume of heretofore unavailable information that we possess in support of this claim.

All who have actually seen this collection of new evidence in the binders have taken pause and are more than willing to stay open minded until the DNA testing comes in....and this mystery will finally at long last come to a close.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby John Knight on Sat May 05, 2012 12:02 pm

Do you really think this is all we have got? I also want to know why you have not responded to the Hazel McCully post on Encyclopedia Titanica which is very explicit.
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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Timothy Trower on Sat May 05, 2012 2:04 pm

I would caution that this discussion remain friendly, and without accusation.

IF any parties to this discussion are posting under an assumed name, whether on the THSMB, Facebook or ET, they will be dealt with according to the rules of this message board. (I am well aware of the Hazel McCully postings on a closed Facebook group and rarely visit ET, but see Mr. Knight's recent post as just a rehashing of the McCully posts without attribution.)

Tim Trower
THSMB Admin.
All the best,

Tim

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Re: The Mystery: Helen Lorraine Allison & Helen Lorraine Kra

Postby Debrina Woods on Sat May 05, 2012 2:18 pm

To All, I came to this forum in total sincerity, to seek help in this matter...which by in large I have received and while absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinions and passions as regards this story...some amongst you seem to have their own agendas.

Mr. Knight, YOU say that you "Have More" and yet I take it from your tone, that you are unwilling to share with me except by public forums? This is helping me? I question YOUR motivations sir. Have I not cooperated with you and all your (and others) questions earlier in this forum...

Have I not the right now to inquire about you and your quite zealous it appears interest in this matter!
and you also refer to "WE" ??? Disclose yourself.

In any case, I have communicated to you by email this morning, the format I requested we communicate in as regards the more personal aspects of information exchanged.

We had looked forward to working with you and anyone interested in sincerely assisting me but, I am advised as you have been in the email, that we consider your tone to be hostile, and will not, until the conditions requested (an apology) are met, continue to acknowledge you or your postings in any way. Enough said.
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