RMS Lusitania

[Tyler J Frederick]

Last night, I watched a movie on The Sinking of the Lusitania. Today, I started reading Robert Ballard's Lusitania, formerly Expolring the Lusitania. I so much want this mystery solve. Why did the torpedo hit the Lusitania right in the boiler room? Why did the Lusitania sink in 18 minutes, rather than 2 hours & 40 minutes that it took Titanic to sink, or even the 11 hours it took the Andrea Doria when she sank in 1956? What is Lusitania's state now? So many questions. And most of it is why. What would if Lusitania survive the war? if you say scrap, I swear I'm gonna . Can you answer all these questions please?
One more thing, this is about me now. For the past 2 months, I've been completely zoned out. Everytime I watch a ship movie, I'm competely unresponsive, I am constantly in a dead like state. And the Ship movie reaches a climematic moment, weather it's Lusitania, Titanic, or even Poseidon, or Queen Mary flims, I'm sound like this: uhhh, uhhh, moaning, groaning. Awful, isn't it? And the worst part is when I come to, I look in the mirror, My face is pale grey, & so are my eyes, & my clothes are tatter. Can you tell me what is happening to me?
Oh! I just remember. When I hear that a liner is sent to the scrapyard, I get really mad, like this :very mad:. When I get like this, I think of nothing but revenge. To avenge the scrapped Ocean Liners. I have since learn that there is nothing I can't do. But what is happening to me? Why am I going from one extreme to the other? Help me guys. I don't like to be a animal, like the Three Days Grace song, Animal I have become. Please tell me what is wrong with me. Thank you.
Tyler Joshua Frederick

[Ludwig Bader]

Well Tyler,

I simply can tell you again what you've already heard from me and a lot of others in this message board: Ships are built to earn profit for their companies. And when they have reached an age when they are not longer reliable, not longer in the paying public's taste, they have to be put out of service. And so sad it is - but this mostly means scrapping.

About your questions:

Why did the torpedo hit the Lusitania right in the boiler room?

I'm not sure I got the point, but simply because it had to hit somewhere if it didn't miss. Pure accident.

Why did the Lusitania sink in 18 minutes?

There was an enormous second explosion following the torpedo hit which damaged the hull badly and destroyed the whole structure of the bow section. This caused intense flooding within only a few minutes.
Furthermore, there were additional reasons for the fast sinking:
[*]A lot of the waterthight doors could not be closed as a result of a quick failure in the ship's electric systems and the damage of the bulkheads follwoing the explosion.
[*]The engines were still running and could not be stopped. Lucy was pushing herself under water.
[*]It was a bright, sunny day. A lot of portholes were open and caused additional flooding - especially as there was a great list to starboard.

What is Lusitania's state now?

Quite bad. She's resting on her starboard side, the hull broken, the upper sections slipped off her, the funnels and masts are gone.

What would if Lusitania survive the war?

Well, she would have been converted to oil furnaces as the Maury, had served well and - sorry - would most likely have been scrapped in the mid 1930ies.

About scrapping: What do you want to hear? We don't live in a romantic paradise, but in a world in which money has to be earned and people have to find jobs. Think about ship companies losing profit because of operating old and no longer adequate ships - they would fail and had to fire all their workers. Steelworkers have to find work, and ship's steel is one of the most important basics for steel economy even today. Perhaps it helps if you imagine that scrapping is necessary for saving peolpes' jobs. And sorry - but even as a great shiplover I say: To get people employed is much more than preserving an old ship.

[Ludwig Bader]

Just one more point:

I'm living in Bavaria, as you can see, very close to Lake Starnberg, one of Germany's largest lakes. There is a very famous ship sailing on it, the MS Seeshaupt, which I love very much and I know her since I was a little child. And now I've read in the newspapers yesterday that she will be put out of service and scrapped next year. She was a fine boat, built in 1955 (then the largest pleasure barge ever built in Germany). She served well for almost sixty years, carried tens of thousands of people and will now find her end. Of course I'm sad, but as a shiplover I'm also looking forward to seeing her successor - a new, very interesting ship in a new design. That's how things go - nothing is forever.

Here's a picture of her:

http://www.event-location-suche.de/wp-c ... shaupt.jpg

[Tyler J Frederick]

Well, I'm hurt And I'm shock that alot of people don't care. Well, at least there us of THS. Now don't get me wrong, I love new Ocean Liners too. I just want to perserve the history of the Great Ocean Liners. This is why I joined Titanic Historical Soceity, so we can save Maritime History. Thank you.
Tyler Frederick

[Jeremy Aufderheide]

Saving history doesn't mean saving the ship. Save pieces of the ship. But where do you plan to store all of these ocean liners that are being lost? The prime example is the QM, which is in a sad state both in terms of structure and in terms of financials.

I'd rather she'd been scrapped or sunk than to see her beached and exploited.

[Tyler J Frederick]

I am trying to get the picture. Say, why is it that when a Ocean Liner sinks, that they seem to laid on their sides, or even upside down? Titanic landed upright, So why did Lusitania, Britannic, Andrea Doria, all seem to land on their sides, instead of being up right like Titanic?
Tyler Frederick

[Jeremy Aufderheide]

Depends. Soemtimes it's the way they sink. Andrea Doria rolled over as she sank. Also, the Britannic and Lusitania are in shallow water. The Titanic sank upright.

The Bismarck is rightside up as well. But she rolled over when she sank. Because she's about 3 miles down, she had time to right herself as she sank.

[Tyler J Frederick]

Bismarck was a German pocket battleship. Which bring me to the question, Why do I see more warships & sailing ships preserve more than Ocean Liners? I see not glamerous about sailing ships & warships. They didn't carry passengers like the Great Ocean Liners, plus they don't as much history as Ocean Liners. I'm sorry, but I rather see sailing ships, & battleships scrap than Ocean Liners. The Great Ocean Liners have a lot of history, why can't we save them, & we save sailing ships like Star of India, & battleships like Oklahoma? I don't understand. I find warships boring, I'm sorry. Their interiors are somthing to be desaire. A Coverted Ocean Liner like Queen Mary seem more fun to be on. I'm sorry if I sounded upset, it's because I am, but can have the 2 question answer? Please & Thank you.
Tyler Joshua Frederick
Of The
Frederick Clan

[Jeremy Aufderheide]

Tyler - You're asking questions that no one person can possibly hold the answer to. As many different people make decisions about ships being preserved...and they work independently of each other...there's no way to tell why warships are preserved and ocean liners are not.

[Michael H Standart]

I suspect that the reason you see more warships being preserved then any merchant vessel is due in no small part to a lot of sentimentality on the part of the crews along with a genuine affection for their ships. It helps that there have been a lot more warships placed in service then ocean liners so that makes for a much larger pool to choose from.

That much aside, it remains to be seen how well a lot of these efforts fare over the long haul. A substantial number of these museum ships survive because of local or state funding since they are rarely ever self supporting from any sort of revenues from admissions, donations, and gift shop sales. Some ships which are very important historically, such as the armoured cruiser USS Olympia are in a lot of trouble. They are badly in need of major repairs and could still end up going to the scrapyard or being sunk as an artificial reef.

Ships are maintainance intensive in the extreme and are difficult to keep up even when in active service with hoards of sailors, plenty of funding, and major shipyard support. Take that away, and cut the staff of employees down to a skeleton crew and these problems tend to build up over time.

[Tyler J Frederick]

I guess I must face facts, Scapping is for the most part, unavoidable. I still desire to see them save, but I need help to let go. Tyler J. Frederick

[Ludwig Bader]

@Tyler:

Bismarck was a German pocket battleship.

No. You've mixed up Bismarck with the famous Deutschland class (two sister ships Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee). These ships were called "pocket battleships" as they were built under the close restrictions of the treaty of Versailles. The Bismarck was built years later and was doubtless one of the - if not the - most powerful battleship in the world when finished in 1941. Nevertheless, some US battleships outsized her soon in firepower and technology.

plus they don't as much history as Ocean Liners

Well, that's a difficult point. I see what you mean, warships didn't have any effects on a country's culture and didn't have that enormous impact on its seagoing reputation as passenger liners. But to say that warships have no history is wrong in my eyes. They guaranteed in the most dangerous time ever threatening the world's freedom (WW II) the security of the world's sea lanes to allow transports to sail (and that means very often the large liners!). And they were fighting battles - and this means making history! Sailing a passenger ship wouldn't have decided battles like D Day, Midway or Leyte. It's a sad reality that sometimes guns are needed to reach a time when no guns are needed.

All the best,

Ludwig

[Tyler J Frederick]

I'm Shock , & I'm hurt , that men value their guns instead of the glory & revenue of Ocean Liners. I am so upset that, in a choice of between saving warships & saving Liners, They send a Ocean Liner to the bloody scrapyard. It may be business, but it a awful business. Do you the kind of hurt & anger that I feel? Tyler J Frederick

[Ludwig Bader]

Well, just a little thought:

Without the guns of the Alliied forces in WWII (and that means including the guns of the big battleships!) you surely wouldn't have any possibility today to join the web, tell your opinions and thoughts free and fearless - including your right to be upset and angry. An axis victory would have destroyed all that freedom we are now enjoying today.

All the best,

Ludwig

[Tyler J Frederick]

You're right, I'm sorry. Wars just upsets me. When I get mad, I start to hate things. And when I clang to that, I plunge into the darkness like the guy from one of the shows I watch. I have issues with certain things. But enough of that.
Why did the Royal Navy did not put any effort to escort the Lusitania? They knew that the Germans targeted her. Lusitania was a proud Ship. Why was she a target for the Germans? weapons or no weapons, theLusitania was a innocent ship, fill with innocent people. I hope my questions are answerable. But I will say this, found out a long time ago. I HATE politics. politics ruined everything.
Tyler J. Frederick

[Ludwig Bader]

Lusitania and Maruetania were listed in the Brassey Manual of 1914 (I think) as auxiliary cruisers of the Royal Navy. Books of that kind were used by submarine commanders as a matter of identification, so for the German Navy it was clear that these ships were put into navy service during the war. And the Lucy was met in a officially declared war zone - she was a legal target. The problem was that it was a surprise attack of th Grman submarine without warning - that should be done according to the so called "cruiser rules". But the German officers were aware of U boat traps - "harmless" ships which opened fire with hidden guns on surfacing submarines. So U20 was in an awkward position - war is a cruel and useless game...

All the best,

Ludwig

[Michael H Standart]

>>Why did the Royal Navy did not put any effort to escort the Lusitania? <<

Escort her with what? What few destroyers were available didn't have a signifigant anti-submarine warfare capability and they were desperately needed elsewhere in the event of the High Seas Fleet attempting a breakout.

Further to the point, the very few escorts which could have conceivably kept up with the Lusitania were so fuel hungry that they couldn't have done so for long.

>>They knew that the Germans targeted her.<<

Not specifically they didn't. The U-20 was phenomonally lucky to be in the right place at the right time to even see the ship in the first place. Even then, had it not been for that final course change the Lusitania made, they never would have been able to close the range to get a useful firing solution.

[Tyler J Frederick]

That maybe the case, but we are talking about a innocent ship with innocent people. And to do what the Germans did at that time was willful & meclilous. I can see it with my eyes MURDER! LUSITANIA SUNK BY VICOUS GERMANS! I can see that in papers all over the world. President Wilson was so angry that he warned Germany that if they did that again, America will sever the bond with Germany.
Tyler Joshua Frederick
of the
Frederick Clan

[Michael H Standart]

That maybe the case, but we are talking about a innocent ship with innocent people.

There's no maybe about it, Tyler: This is the case.

However innocent the Lusitania and her passengers may have been, she was still listed as a mobilization asset with the Royal Navy as an armed merchant cruiser, she was subject to being taken into service at any time as such, and she was transiting through a declared war zone.

You might want to do some real in depth research on the subject before you start painting the Germans with such a broad brush. While they tried to spin in it in the public arena...it's not as if they had a choice in the matter...behind the scenes, they were very unhappy with Kapitanluetnet Schweiger for his taking the shot and sinking the ship.

Short of trying to dig up primary sources, see if you can find a copy of Baily and Ryan's "The Lusitania Disaster" which delves into the matter.

It's just not as simple or as cut and dried as you think.

[Ludwig Bader]

Well, Tyler, there's nothing to add to what Michael said. If I may go so far - but you should try to separate your kind of engrossed view on the ocean liners from the facts and the historical circumstances. They have almost nothing in common. Ocean liners were part of their times with all the good and bad things, and not a kind of "holy creatures".

All the best (by the way, from "vicious Germany" ),

Ludwig